Sirotablog
David Sirota is a political journalist and nationally syndicated newspaper columnist at Creators Syndicate. David writes about political corruption, globalization and working-class economic issues often ignored by both of America's political parties.
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August 29, 2007 8:15 AM
A Sad Benchmark: Chinese Communists Teach American Capitalists Econ 101
There's something really, well, sad about America having to learn its lessons about the free market from communist China. But hey - a lesson is a lesson, right?
In a business section story, the New York Times reports on the shocking - shocking, I tell you! - news that wages actually rise when the supply of labor tightens and the laws of supply and demand are permitted to actually work.
Here's an excerpt:
"Chinese wages are on the rise. No reliable figures for average wages exist; the government’s economic data are notably unreliable. But factory owners and experts who monitor the nation’s labor market say that businesses are having a hard time finding able-bodied workers and are having to pay the workers they can find more money."
This is pitched to us, of course, as horrific news, namely because underneath all their rhetoric about wanting to help bring prosperity to the world, corporate executives were banking on "China’s vast population supply[ing] a nearly bottomless pool of workers" which they hoped would mean "so many people would be seeking jobs at any given time that wages in this country would be stuck just above subsistence levels." Unfortunately for the profiteers, the basic free market laws of supply and demand are kicking in (though let's be clear: China still has a way to go - the worker in the article now makes just $263 a month, and the country's lax labor/wage laws will continue to exert downward pressure on wages there).
Now, I know - if you are an American, you might find this connection between supply of labor and wages strange and unfathomably hard to believe - like a conspiracy theory or something out of a sci-fi movie. That's natural. You live in a country where The Great Labor Shortage Lie is regarded as an unquestioned economic axiom. This is a place where corporate CEOs and their right-wing toadies in Washington bemoan a supposedly tight labor market here as an excuse to outsource jobs and to pass immigration laws designed to create new classes of low-wage indentured servants. These same CEOs and politicians, of course, have no explanation for why wages continue to stagnate - even though domestic worker productivity steadily rises. All we know is that labor is supposedly tight, wages stagnate - but CEO salaries continues to skyrocket to 364 times the average worker's paycheck.
There's a few things going on here in America that explain this seemingly incongruent trifecta of a tight labor market, high productivity and nonetheless stagnating wages.
First, - the labor market isn't all that tight. As the Center for Economic and Policy Research shows, official government statistics purporting to show a super-low unemployment rate do not count all sorts of people who are unemployed. So the labor market still has a lot of cushion in it.
Second, thanks to a raft of Clinton and Bush-backed trade deals that include no enforceable labor, wage, human rights or environmental protections, we have an economic system that actually rewards employers for shipping American jobs to other countries where labor/wage/human rights/environmental exploitation is a viable way to cut costs. Workers who are lucky enough to have decent jobs here in America know that companies can now credibly threaten to just pick up and leave - and that reality has hurt workers' bargaining power. Its harder to demand a raise if you know it means you'll probably get canned.
Finally, this same threat-aiding trade policies and a politically connected professional union busting industry has helped crush the labor movement. And as the data shows, workers who are organized to bargain collectively not only secure better wages for themselves, but lift up all wages - union and non-union - in their industries.
Thus, we have now arrived at a seemingly absurd and quite pathetically sad point in our history. On the front page of the New York Times business section - the publication of record for America's free market fundamentalists - Chinese communists are teaching us American capitalists a lesson about how the free market is supposed to work.
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About David Sirota
David Sirota is a political journalist and nationally syndicated newspaper columnist at Creators Syndicate. He is the New York Times bestselling author of Hostile Takeover. He lives in Denver, Colorado. His daily blog can be found at CREDO Action. He contributes regularly to the Denver Post's Web site, is a senior editor at In These Times magazine and is working on his second book. He has been profiled in Newsweek and the Rocky Mountain News and is widely known for his reporting on political corruption, globalization and working-class economic issues often ignored by both of America's political parties. Sirota serves as co-chair of the Progressive States Network, a 501(c)3 organization that supports state legislators and that is a partner of CREDO.
You can subscribe to Sirota's e-mail newsletter by going to davidsirota.com and signing up in the lefthand corner. To find out more about Sirota, download his official biography or see his recent media appearances. You can e-mail him at sirota@credoaction.com.
The views expressed on this blog are his own, and do not necessarily represent the views of Working Assets (publisher of CREDO Action) or the institutions Sirota works for.
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China is also teaching corporations what can be done when the government takes the workers side against corporation lobbyists. The Chinese government recently made drastic reforms of its labor laws that were fought tooth and nail by American corporations. That may also be the reason wages are going up. China is no longer a communist country and hasn't been since its new 1982 constitution a fact missed and still missed by the hapless American media, politicians and pundits. This is from article 42 of their 1982 constitution. "Citizens of the People's Republic of china have the right, as well as the duty to work. Using various channels, the state creates conditions for employment..." In the previous 1977 constitution it said, "Citizens have a right to work. To ensure that citizens enjoy this right, the state provides employment..." By the change of these three words, China became a capitalist country because a country not responsible for the employment of their workers cannot qualify as a socialist country. They are in fact a fascist dictatorship. American is a representative fascist dictatorship. The only real difference between the two is America is a pseudo democracy. Both are now dominated by global corporations. The difference is that the U.S. is totally dominated. The Chinese government still has control of the corporations, but you can see from the recent lobbying effort of American corps. against labor reform that the corporations are fighting this domination, already with modest success. For more about this read "Parity Democracy, how to level the world economic playing field", distributed worldwide online at amazon.com, BN.com etc.
This in part is why I am arguing to top think tanks etc. that we must Nationalize our American Oil Industry and all energy..!
It's the answer and the future and will propel us into the 21st century like nothing else and cut our energy costs by 30-33% and add over $60 billion per year every year to huge technological advances..
It's a no brainer..!
Nationalize the America Oil Industry...
Create Jobs..
New Alternative energy sources
Develope ture real clean coal technolgy
Fusion..
Hydrogen as they use in almost all buses in Germany now already..
Strengthen National Security..
Perhaps avoid huge ruinous war..
End the corruption from the Oil industry
More and more..
Nationalize all Energy..and all holdings
It can still be traded on the big board as a state owned Industry as it is in China and Russia..
Nationalize..
One difference is that we don't make anything in the U.S. anymore whether it be clothes, electronic goods, tools, medical supplies, furniture. We're a nation of toilet cleaners, sandwich makers, telemarketers, state employees and Wal-Mart workers hedge fund managers and paper pushers. With such low skill jobs there is no reason to pay people a decent wage. You can find and train replacement in a matter of hours.
This is what happens when you de-skill your workforce and de-industrial your nation. Everybody becomes easily replaceable.
And unionization can't fix that or turn a toilet cleaner into a $20 a hour job.
To me the obsession over unionization is 20 years too late and a joke. The Democrats should have been pushing this when we had a industrial and tech base to unionize.
Unionizing toilet cleaners and sandwich makers is just a sad joke.
China may or may not still be a Communist country, but they are still an oligarchy.
They are still wanting to be the dominant and dominating power the Pacific Rim, they are still out to kick our butt, they are still sending guerilla terrorists into Nepal, they still haven't given Tibet back to the Tibetans, they are still holding a grudge against Japan (though that might be considered excusable), they still want to find a way to take over Korea(it's the only reason they put up with "Dear Leader Kim"), they are forging closer ties with the rocket rattling Russians, they are still building up their war machine to mega proportions, and selling their obsolete equipment to terrorist organizations.
They are still using prison slave labor.
Selling shoddy and down right dangerous goods to overseas markets. Did you hear about the formaldehyde in the blankets they shipped to Australia and New Zealand?
Oh, did I mention that they shouldn't be trusted?
The major reason Chinese wages are rising is because the Chinese oligarchs are smart enough to know that by tossing their workers a few crumbs now and then they will not have an uprising that could spoil their plans for pacific domination.
BTW we are part of the Pacific Rim, people.
Too bad our (not) so smart wannabe oligarchs here haven't figured all this out.
The corporations would prefer slaves over workers. As a society, we're lucky that corporations weren't powerful during the 1850s, otherwise the Civil War may have never eliminated slavery.
well, this is exactly why we need to phase out the guest worker programs and end illegal immigration. A tough border security bill, with punitive employer sanctions, that would also end guest worker programs, would be the most pro labor piece of legislation, that you could hope for.
The H-1b guest worker program must be phased out -- as even the proprietor of this blog has noted, there is no "skilled" labor shortage.
http://www.reformus.org/
Randel Johnson, vice president for labor, immigration, and employee benefits at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, told reporters yesterday that separate legislation to increase the yearly cap on H-1B visas for 'highly skilled' workers would pass in the Fall. And this helps us how? Oh right. The white collar middle class is SUPPOSED to be kicked to the curb in order to pave the way for cheap, imported labor.
But why, I wonder, isn't this issue an action item on the right hand side of this workingforchange blog?
"It's Not the Economy, Stupid. IT'S YOUR JOB!"
But why, I wonder, isn't this issue an action item on the right hand side of this workingforchange blog?
Good question, I've always wondered why progressives weren't against stopping the H1-B visa program considering its sole purpose is to smash tech and factory workers.
Makes me wonder whose side are they really on.
not just H-1B visas, but all guest worker programs and illegal immigration. The working class will never be able to gain traction in this country, so long as the business community can import cheap labor and illegal alliens. But then Democrats and Republicans have sold their souls to the multi-national corporations and special interest groups that run this country. I'm sorry but David and the Democratic Party are dead wrong on this issue. And that article he wrote about Tancredo was just wrong, if there is only a "miniscule" chance that illegal allien children would be covered under SCHIP and its no big deal, then why include illegal alliens in the first place?
H1B, guest worker, and "illegal" immigration are only the symptoms. It was the domestic policies against the working class that started this whole mess thanks to RAYGUN, KILLton, Bush I/II, and their ilks. If anyone thinks Tom Tancredo has any intention of actually curbing "illegal" immigration/labor, THINK AGAIN. Sure, he made a few wise decisions to vote no on a lot of "Free" trade scams especially CAFTA. However, his support of DICTATORS such as Felipe Calderon who not only STOLE the Mexican election with the help of the US government/media but also made no bones about his support of HEAVIER DUMPING of "illegals" is more than enough to expose Tancredo's hypocrisy. And David was actually correct to further punch a hole in Tancredo's FUCKING arguments. Let's recap. Tancredo says "we should DENY American children health care because there’s a tiny possibility illegal immigrant children might get health care, too." So there you have it, Tancredo is out to FUCK us all working and middle and lower class voters to DEATH more than anything else. Unfortunately, the poor slobs who buy into Tancredo's BULLSHIT are soaked and drowned in SCHADENFREUDE mode. There's no point in having fun watching your enemies possibly self destruct when you have nothing to gain from it and there's no plan to move forward.
If you want to seal the borders and prevent illegals from getting healthcare, the best way to do it is to stop DENYING the American worker his or her benefits first. In fact, make it priority number one to give the American people their dues first. The fence will take care of itself.
H1B, guest worker, and "illegal" immigration are only the symptoms."
Of the larger problem which is that multi-national corporations, which run the show, want to outsource American jobs to cheap labor markets and insource guest workers and illegals for high tech and service jobs that can't be outsourced.
"It was the domestic policies against the working class that started this whole mess thanks to RAYGUN, KILLton, Bush I/II, and their ilks."
And what they all have in common is that they are globalists.
"However, his support of DICTATORS such as Felipe Calderon who not only STOLE the Mexican election with the help of the US government/media but also made no bones about his support of HEAVIER DUMPING of "illegals" is more than enough to expose Tancredo's hypocrisy."
I think he did steal the election, and that is unacceptable, but Obrador was also a supporter of open borders as well and a socialist to boot. Both choices sucked..I have profound disagreements with Mr. Tancredo on foreign policy, the Patriot Act, and warantless wiretapping, but he is very sincere is in his views on illegal immigration.
"Tancredo says "we should DENY American children health care because there’s a tiny possibility illegal immigrant children might get health care, too." So there you have it, Tancredo is out to FUCK us all working and middle and lower class voters to DEATH more than anything else"
Bullshit! What neck of the woods are you from? I've seen the town I grew up in overrun with illegal alliens and their children recieving all types of benefits at the expense of my tax dollars. And so long as there are benefits to be had this will continue. And if there is only a tiny chance of illegal allien children being covered under SCHIP, then why did Democrats go out of the way to make sure they were covered. And we all know the answer: Because Democrats like the Republicants are just as beholden to transnational corporations and just as committed to open borders and globalism.
"Obrador was also a supporter of open borders as well and a socialist to boot." - brabbit
Not true at all. Obrador made it crystal clear that he would continue to work hard to bring back the "illegalized" Mexicans by continuing to fight to repair the SEVERELY DAMAGED economic environment in Mexico even if it took being a socialist. Sure, socialism has its flaws but it would go a long ways in curbing illegal immigration and some socialism doesn't hurt.
"What neck of the woods are you from?" - brabbit
For your own information, I'm from Spartanburg, South Carolina and yeah, there's plenty of room for all the social conservatism bullshit to enjoy if you're into that crap. And yeah, there are plenty of losers crying foul about illegals but then doing nothing to stand up to the policies that put them in this mess in the first place. I don't believe in hate crimes or violence or aggression as a solution.
"I've seen the town I grew up in overrun with illegal alliens and their children recieving all types of benefits at the expense of my tax dollars." - brabbit
There's lies your problem. Instead of worrying about someone else getting benefits, why don't you put your time and action where your mouth is and join forces and put pressure on your politicians, local and national, and the business folks to make sure that the American people and their children are given higher priority. Your misdirected anger towards the "illegals" you keep crying about is getting you nowhere so snap out of it.
"And so long as there are benefits to be had this will continue." - brabbit
RIGHTWING BULLSHIT. It's just like saying that the only way to punish a student is to punish the entire class which is exactly what Tancredo is proposing. I guess you're happy that Tancredo is ready to SNATCH those benefits away from your children and if/when something disastrous happens to any of your children, I'd like to see the look on their faces when you tell them "The reason you can't have benefits is because them illegals will get it too."
"And if there is only a tiny chance of illegal allien children being covered under SCHIP, then why did Democrats go out of the way to make sure they were covered." - brabbit
Did you even read the program? Of course not. Your brain has been DAMAGED by hate talk and SCHADENFREUDE. Maybe some Democrats realized that it's better to support the American people and their children regardless of who gets what. If you don't want "illegals" to get benefits, then why don't you put your action and time where your mouth is and put pressure on your local and national politicians to not allow hiring of "illegals" in the first place. And while at it, bring back the worker safety rules and protections, labor union rights, higher wages, etc ... I don't see you complaining when the GOP knowingly gives "illegals" SS benefits because the GOP badly hates SS.
Bread and circuses can be fun but nothing beats putting your time and action where your mouth is any day.
I can remember my younger days out here in MS when we lynched and killed blacks on the basis that they were a "threat" to the white working class. Even when they were crippled, it was only after we realized that the economic elitists were playing us for fools that we pulled out of our racists ways, well at least most states outside the deep south did. But getting to the point, we should have already learned a lesson that the pro-slavery robber barons played politics with the working class when they imported SLAVE labor from Africa and after that the elite made fools of us all by dividing us working, lower, and middle class voters by race, gender, religion, etc ... Unfortunately, what with the way we're relying on near-slave "cheap" labor from Mexico, China, Japan, India, Russia, etc ..., I seriously doubt that we've learned ANY lessons in history.
So let's just go ahead and build those fences. In no way will that stop anything other than making it harder for law-abiding immigrants to get their honest pay. And it won't stop the outsourcing and offshoring of businesses to China, Japan, India, Russia, etc ...
By the way, I for one don't really mind the fences but I think it's only going to remain a small solution given our weak labor/wage laws these days that made the US a magnet for illegal labor and thus illegal immigrants in the first place. Frankly though, I'd rather us working, lower, middle class voters join the ones in other countries and stand up to "cheap" labor exploitation and KILL the neolib theory of "free" market/trade as there is no such thing as "free" market/trade.
Not true at all. Obrador made it crystal clear that he would continue to work hard to bring back the "illegalized" Mexicans by continuing to fight to repair the SEVERELY DAMAGED economic environment in Mexico even if it took being a socialist" -Fredrick Johnson
He was also calling for amnesty for illegals and free migration of Mexicans to America, that is open borders. On the plus side, he did call for amnending the NAFTA treaty, although I don't think that goes far enough, it ought to be cancelled.
. Sure, socialism has its flaws but it would go a long ways in curbing illegal immigration and some socialism doesn't hurt. -Fredrick Johnson
And yeah, there are plenty of losers crying foul about illegals but then doing nothing to stand up to the policies that put them in this mess in the first place. I don't believe in hate crimes or violence or aggression as a solution. -Fredrick Johnson
So the 80 percent of the country that are against illegal immigration are dumb and uneducated and "right wingers"? (and this includes 50 percent of Hispanics who voted for Prop 187 and last November in Arizona and Colorado to cut off welfare and social services to illegals) Nice, real nice. I'm sure the plantation owners said the same thing to the abolitionists. And no one is calling for violence or hatred as a solution, but that the business community will be held accountable for breaking the law and that our soverneity respected. And let's not forget that illegal alliens break the law by coming into this country illegally and using fraudulent documents. This is also a slap in the face to those people that come to the county through legal means. And having dated a Mexican-American woman I can tell you, that many legal immigrants are very angry that they go through the process which may take years to come here and others break the law and come into the country illegally and then expect they are entitled to all types of benefits that are supposed to be for American citizens.
There's lies your problem. Instead of worrying about someone else getting benefits, why don't you put your time and action where your mouth is and join forces and put pressure on your politicians, local and national, and the business folks to make sure that the American people and their children are given higher priority. Your misdirected anger towards the "illegals" you keep crying about is getting you nowhere so snap out of it. -Fredrick Johnson
I've actually met with my Congressman, Senators, State Senators and was one of those "loud" folks that that piece of trash Senator Graham complained about, who called Washington every day for weeks on end, demanding that our politicans in Washington not pass the comprehensive immigration bill. I did the same making phone calls and with e-mail, requesting that my elected leaders not vote for CAFTA and the Oman trade agreements. I am very active in the political process and recently have become very concerned about the NAFTA Superhighway and the Mexican trucking companies.
On the issue of illegals, I'm sorry they broke the law, I may have sympathy for their plight and problems in their country of origin, but I do not condone breaking the law. By condoning their actions, and supporting amnesty, guest worker programs, and open borders, I would be supporting the wishes of the transnational corporations and the elites who wish to turn us into wage slaves and create a North American Union. I would then be showing malice to my fellow Americans and supporting the destruction of my country. I would then be supporting the destruction of the middle class and ensure that the working man will have the ladder of mobility kicked out from underneath him.
So, I think you are making excuses by not speaking out against open borders and illegal immigration, and showing de facto support for the multi-nationals that are trying to destroy our country. And I believe that it is not the amount of immigrants we allow into our country, but the quality of life that we can provide for them, when determining if our immigration policies are morally right or wrong.
. Maybe some Democrats realized that it's better to support the American people and their children regardless of who gets what. -Fredrick Johnson
It was all about trying to curry favor with the Hispanic community in a cynical and wrongheaded ploy to gain votes and second a way to suck up to the business community, because by ensuring more benefits to illegal alliens, it will encourage more to enter our country and ensure a steady supply of cheap labor for the businesses and not allow the labor market to tighten and wages to increase. If this was just about helping children, the bill would not have included coverage for illegal alliens.
I don't see you complaining when the GOP knowingly gives "illegals" SS benefits because the GOP badly hates SS. -Fredrick Johnson
First off, I am an independent. That way I can stick to my principles and don't have to make excuses and play the lesser of two evils game for either of the two party corporate monopoly in Washington. In other words, I think for myself. Second, I am just as critical of the Republican Party, especially, Bush, McCain, Cheney, Guliani, etc. The Republicans are a bunch of elite globalists and these trade agreements are sucking the life of the middle class and causing the illegal immigration problem to worsen.
Illegal immigration has always existed for decades. However, to all of a sudden bring it up in the middle of nowhere makes no sense. Back in the 1950s, Eisenhower actually helped the labor union movement in addition to deportation. Sure, there were no borders but there was enforcement where it counted both on the economic front and then border control.
spankinrankin, the social conservative movement may still be happening today but it's a whole lot different. Back in the older days, when the working class wasn't as bad off, for example in Kansas, one could take an axe and trash a bar and put them out of business because he or she would not only vehemently say that alcohol is a sin but they would be determined to take a whack at the problem/threat they perceive. Today, that same person would raise their fist in anger but would not only simultaneously feel POWERLESS but would also let them get away with it. For example, anti-abortion protesters would play dead in front of an abortion clinic but wouldn't dare destroy it. Or for that matter, you'll hear a neighbor crying "illegal aliens" but look closer and that same person would be using them for "cheap" labor. Today's problem lies in the lack of consistency. One could cry about illegals getting benefits and yet they'll still support the same crooks that give them the benefits without their knowing it. Thomas Frank's "What's the Matter With Kansas?" offers a lot of insight into the self-righteousness lunacy and pretty much gives the psychological nature of the social cons and their blind support of the corporate crooks that screw them even when some of those corporate crooks are not necessarily social conservative themselves.
Illegal immigration has always existed for decades. However, to all of a sudden bring it up in the middle of nowhere makes no sense. Back in the 1950s, Eisenhower actually helped the labor union movement in addition to deportation. Sure, there were no borders but there was enforcement where it counted both on the economic front and then border control. -maxpayne
One of the most pro labor things you could do, would be to restrict immigration and phaseout the guest worker programs, that way the labor market would tighten and wages would rise. It really is economics 101 as David said. And this is why I don't understand why Democrats would not be for restricting immigration. As long as you have a surplus labor pool with unlimited immigration and open borders, the working man will always be dealing from a position of weakness and not strength. And not to mention, use of guest workers and illegal alliens are just another form of union busting.
Of course in Eisenhower's day we had 3 million illegals and not 12-20 million (and I bet that number is closer to 20 million). But your point is a good one. I just think until we get out of these awful trade deals and control our borders the poor and middle class, will continue to get the screws put to him.
I forgot to add one thing. Locally and even regionally in VA, action is being taken to clamp down on the illegal mess though I think there's a long way to go. Prince William County and Stafford County up in Northern VA have learned from the suburban sprawl mess in Fairfax County and to some degree in Loudoun and Manassas. The counties/cities closer to DC such as Fairfax, Arlington, and Alexandria that are the biggest losers of the immigration mess are silent on this one. Moreover, the local offices there passed laws to easen up rules for employers hiring "illegals" giving a bullshitty excuse that VA has to be able to "compete" business wise. Then again, there's no action being taken on I-81 where most of the trucks roam and since the western part of the state is rural, it's easy to dump them right then and there. After that, it doesn't take long for them to find the highly populated areas in the state.
"It's just like saying that the only way to punish a student is to punish the entire class which is exactly what Tancredo is proposing." - Frederick Johnson
Damn right ! The NAZI cons are just out to KILL the American working class to death by making false excuses. Will brabbit make sure that Tancredo gives the American people their benefits after making sure that illegals don't get it? I seriously doubt it given his past voting record of supporting policies that have chipped away benefits from the American people in the first place. Tom Tancredo and his ilk were hell bent upon killing the American working class and now their true colors have finally shown. It's just that they want to make their urge to kill "euphemistic" by distracting the public with fables about "illegals getting benefits" when he knows that it ain't so. Once China starts asking for higher wages and benefits in return, don't expect Tancredo to utter a word on it !
Grant,
Yeah, we are all Nazis for wanting to make sure that Americans don't have to compete for wages with illegal alliens. Yup, 80 percent of the country of whom agrees with me are all Nazis, for not wanting to reward lawbreakers and for wanting our borders to mean something.
And again, if there is only a "minute chance" that illegals would be covered under SCHIP, and this is not a big deal, then why offer cover them coverage at all? And the answer is because it is a big deal as there are 12-20 million illegal alliens in our country, 1 in 10 babies born in the US are anchor babies, and the Democrats are lackeys for multi-national corporations the same as there counterparts and want to reward illegal alliens and leave our borders open so as to depress wages and ensure corporations won't have to pay a fair wage and can manipulate the free-market.
Now another point I want to make is that yeah, you are correct, the Repulicans are a bunch of corporate fascists and public-private partnerships are just another form of fascism, but look in the mirror your party is just as guilty as the one you criticize. A party which endorses open borders and an unlimited flow of illegal alliens and guest workers is no friend to the working class, and is not compassionate or tolerant. That is complete bullshit and if you believe it you are drinking from the same kool-aid as the neo-cons. And this is not what our country needs. And why is it, that you and others assume I must be Republican or sympathetic to Republicans for criticizing SCHIP and the Democrats? You are just as bad as the neo-cons on the radio. Are you that sensitive to criticism of your own party, that you can't look at it objectively, and get so damn defensive?
"Yeah, we are all Nazis for wanting to make sure that Americans don't have to compete for wages with illegal alliens." - brabbit
Your lovely Tancredo isn't fighting for better wages FYI so why are you licking his rectum?
"Yup, 80 percent of the country of whom agrees with me are all Nazis, for not wanting to reward lawbreakers and for wanting our borders to mean something." - brabbit
Most "illegals" don't cross the borders the way your NAZI cons falsely describe it.
"And again, if there is only a "minute chance" that illegals would be covered under SCHIP, and this is not a big deal, then why offer cover them coverage at all?" - brabbit
Excuse me, but you need to take your fucking brain off worrying about "illegals" getting it and CONCENTRATE on helping Americans get it first. Do you know how to get up and fight? Of course not. Do you like it when your buddy Tancredo sides with the BIG BROTHER ACTS I AND II of FUCKING the American people in the name of "winning the war on terrorism"? Hello, Al Quaida is still alive and kicking stronger than ever despite all the freedoms and liberties being taken away in America. Similarly, it's a DOUBLE LOSER to deny Americans their benefits that never go to "illegals" anyway. Making false excuses to deny Americans their rights and benefits is NAZIsm so wake up and quit being a LOSER.
And by the way, I don't vote for either party just like you. However, I have the brains and balls to put health care for my kids first and foremost over anyone else. You on the other hand are telling us that "Americans should deny their kids healthcare because illegals will get it too." That is NAZIsm and you know it. As Frederick pointed out, your child(ren) will HATE you for your pro-NAZI approach when they're FUCKED.
As for SCHIP, it's a hell of a lot better than privatized healthcare unless you want to tell me what you think is a better alternative to SCHIP.
Your lovely Tancredo isn't fighting for better wages FYI so why are you licking his rectum? GrantBurkeVT
Real classy man. Your precious liberals aren't either, so why are you marching in lockstep?
"Yup, 80 percent of the country of whom agrees with me are all Nazis, for not wanting to reward lawbreakers and for wanting our borders to mean something." - brabbit
Most "illegals" don't cross the borders the way your NAZI cons falsely describe it. -GrantburkeVT
60 percent do. And the other 40 percent that overstay their visas are no less guilty of breaking the law and ought to be treated as such.
Excuse me, but you need to take your fucking brain off worrying about "illegals" getting it and CONCENTRATE on helping Americans get it first. -GranteBurkeVt
I am interestefd in helping Americans first, which is why I am so interested in illegal immigration. Instead of making excuses for illegal immigrants and the multi-national corporations who want the illegal allien invasion to continue, you ought to be to looking out for your fellow Americans who suffer because of it.
Do you know how to get up and fight? -GranteBurkeVT
Yeah, I do and am more then happy to go toe to toe, take an asskicking if I need to, and stick up for myself. And I don't have to hide behind a computer either. I also don't need to call people's character into question when I argue politics and act tough and try to bully people around.
Do you like it when your buddy Tancredo sides with the BIG BROTHER ACTS I AND II of FUCKING the American people in the name of "winning the war on terrorism"? -GranteBurkeVt
Go back and read all of my posts in this thread as I already addressed this issue and my opinion of Mr. Tancredo.
Hello, Al Quaida is still alive and kicking stronger than ever despite all the freedoms and liberties being taken away in America. -GranteBurkeVT
No shit Sherlock and the Democrats are just as guilty and gutless as the neocons. Ya know, I really hate these types of arguements where criticism of Republicans or Democrats, automatically means I am in the opposing camp.
Similarly, it's a DOUBLE LOSER to deny Americans their benefits that never go to "illegals" anyway. Making false excuses to deny Americans their rights and benefits is NAZIsm so wake up and quit being a LOSER. -GranteBurkeVT
Its a loser to continue to offer benefits to illegal alliens, which means we will just encourage more of it. And a lot of these benefits do go to illegal alliens, I have witnessed it first hand.
As Frederick pointed out, your child(ren) will HATE you for your pro-NAZI approach when they're FUCKED.
Your children will hate when you the middle class is destroyed because people like you, believed in this touchy feely bullshit, and all of the good jobs went overseas or to illegal alliens. And you are the one with a pro-Nazi approach. What do you think the point of all of this illegal immigration is? Its to turn us all into wage slaves, and eliminate our borders on the way to a fascistic EU style superstate.
At a time when we Americans should be going on the offensive and getting ourselves together, it's truly pathetic that the only thing we're so "good" at is crying and throwing tantrums about "illegals" getting benefits. As some have pointed out, if you are upset about illegals getting benefits that you don't have, you'll just have to fight for it and quit worrying about others having what you want. Besides, denying illegals their benefits will have no effect on you getting them in return. Besides, the policies that forced more Americans to eventually lose more of their benefits was set up long before the illegals even got to work. Grant brought up a noteworthy point too about the fact that most illegals who are brought in to work receive no benefits anyway. The truth is these illegals have been rendered totally ignorant about their rights and even the Constitution just the way the neo liberals/conservatives including Tancredo wanted it. I actually work in an area where illegals are increasingly being given the blue-collared jobs, especially the most dangerous ones, and they have no benefits or protections to go with it but they accepted it nonetheless. We Americans who are not ignorant would fight for the protections and benefits for our jobs no matter the risks. Being a tattletaler and crying about illegals will do nothing as long as we don't fight for better quality jobs with benefit, protections, and better paying wages first. Get that done first and then we'll be able to put the illegals out of business and PUNISH illegal employers who want to play cheapskate with labor. As for special interests such as the Minutemen and the likes, they get all the corporate funding out there to keep the divide and conquer rage going while the elites keep laughing their way to the bank !
About the issue of denying Americans healthcare, Tancredo and the cons have been doing this bullshit for ages so it should be no surprise. I'm sure Tancredo and brabbit are happy to say things like:
"Americans should be forced to accept lower wages because illegal aliens may also fight for higher wages."
"Americans should not be allowed a cleaner and healthier environment because illegal aliens may also get to enjoy it."
"Americans should be denied their freedoms and liberties because illegal aliens may get them too."
"Americans should be PROHIBITED from forming a union and standing up for their worker rights and protections because illegal aliens may also do the same."
"Americans should be BANNED from getting access to safe abortions because illegal aliens may also get access to safe abortions."
"Americans should be barred from owning firearms because illegal aliens may also get access to firearms."
"Americans should be denied affordable public education because illegal aliens may also get it."
"Americans should be failed in school because illegal aliens may succeed in school and beyond."
"Americans must be forbidden from using the public restrooms because illegal aliens will use them too."
"Americans must be taxed to DEATH for the air they breathe because illegal aliens may get a "free" chance to breathe."
spankinrankin,
Based on the current hate-mongering that has been set up as a side distraction, by the time these brown shirts learn any lesson, it will be far too late.
Grant, Nathan,
A lot of it is so true. We always worry about "democracy" in Iraq or for that matter "illegals" getting benefits yet we the American people need to stop and take care of ourselves and each other first and foremost. When I was a young teenager, I had a wonderful teacher who told me “Son, if you look for negatives, you are GUARANTEED to find them. SO STOP LOOKING AND LISTEN TO YOUR HEART!” Notice how brabbit is nailed for failing to concentrate and yet tries to invent an excuse. Of course if one worries about illegals taking over everything they're bound to find that come true. On the other hand, if one were to stop and think about the existing laws not being enforced or even altering the very policies that actually caused this madness would this DYSFUNCTIONAL behavior of anger, hate, and jealousy not be called for in the first place. I'm glad to find people in this forum who are actually willing to engage in a rational discussion and give thoughtful and rational ideas as to what each of us could do out there. It sure beats the idea of punishing everyone just to get at the culprit when the culprit is winning at the expense of everyone else.
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